Part 4: So a Goddess-centered Pagan and a Christian sat down to talk…
“I do believe that Pagans are misunderstood…we are your normal, everyday people.”
As we began to dig deeper into pagan philosophy, some of the major differences between what
Grian and I believe began to surface. There’s not much we agree on when it comes to sin, forgiveness, redemption, and evil. Grian believes that human problems and pain are natural, just part of an evolutionary system where the strong survive and the weak do not. And when you act badly or hurt someone, you pay for it in your next life, which is just another round in the cycle of reincarnation. Gather your courage and read on…
SUSY: Do you feel that Goddess worshippers or pagans are misunderstood by Christians? What are some of the common misconceptions?
GRIAN: Yes, I do believe that Pagans are misunderstood. I assume the average consensus among Christians is that most of us are silly, role-playing types of people who dress up like there’s a Renaissance Festival every day. Or that we are focused on some sort of dark satanic sort of worship and obsessed with the gaining of personal power.
Instead we are your normal, everyday people – both men and women with families going about our daily
lives and doing the best we can to be good people. I think there is a lot of fear among Christian communities in regards to Pagans, though that may be an oversimplification of the reality.
SUSY: Hmmm…I’m going to speak here for Christians I know, and I don’t think I would say there is a conception that pagans are silly. I think your second view is much more likely. Christians familiar with the Bible are aware of what it has to say about both pagans and witches and want to honor God by following his guidelines to stay away from any sort of witchcraft or sorcery. Both the Old and New Testament ban any sort of idol worship, along with specific mention of the goddess (referring to the ancient Mesopotamian fertility cults). However, I think you’re right that Pagans are misunderstood because many of us haven’t taken the time to understand what you believe, and why, or taken the time to get to know you as
people, rather than a simplistic label. That would definitely have described me in the past, and for that I apologize! God is a perfect balance of truth and
grace; too often we emphasize truth and we lack grace. Both are necessary.
GRIAN: I understand what the Bible says about those things and respectfully have much different opinions. I believe the Bible says those things specifically to dictate what the beliefs of ancient Jewish (and later Christian) people should practice and believe. I consider it a guidebook by which a specific spiritual tradition is laid out not unlike many other sacred texts of antiquity and today. It is important for readers to understand that I do not believe in one true religion and hold many sacred writings in
high esteem even if I don’t subscribe to all of the ideas within them. I also believe that the Bible is written a certain way due to a competition of sorts where religious leaders were battling for followers with other faiths of the time. Of course it would say to stay away from other religions and forms of worship.
SUSY: What do you find in goddess worship that you didn’t find in the church of your childhood? What is the appeal?
GRIAN: Okay, here is where some people might get very offended. Unfortunately, to answer the question appropriately it might be necessary to say some things that will be less than popular. Rest assured, no
disrespect is intended.
I do not believe in sin in the traditional sense.
I believe if there is such a thing then it exists only in moments where we hurt another. I believe in Karma and the idea that you can carry your good and bad deeds around with you through lifetimes.
Since I don’t believe in the idea of sin then it would also be obvious that I don’t believe in original sin. That whole idea just really eats at me. I refuse
to believe people are inherently evil. Sure we make mistakes, and lots of them.
But without those mistakes I don’t believe we can evolve as spiritual beings. I actually think if you tell someone that they are inherently bad then they will eventually begin to believe you and may even use that idea as a crutch. How often could someone call a child evil or “devil child” before they are convinced they really are hell spawn? Maybe they will even do something bad and respond with “Well, I’m sinful and bad. What did you expect from me?” I am not implying that is a Christian thing to do… only using it as an example.
After saying that it will be no surprise to hear that I don’t believe in hell or the devil. For starters, I believe the image of the devil is a perverted version of the ancient Horned God of Paganism and a demonization of a Goddess of Light or Venus. But we all know the victors write the history books. Beside the point, in all honesty I see the idea of the devil as a metaphor for the “darker” aspects of God/dess. I believe there can be no light without dark and vice versa. I believe both exist in all life and within God/dess.
Now by darkness I am not talking about “evil.” I am talking about the kind of necessary destruction we see in Nature. Everything that lives must also die so that more life can be created. This “dark” element is necessary or there would never be any sort of transformation that leads to creation. All life would cease to exist. For something to be created other things must be destroyed or transformed to make something new.
SUSY: What do you do with random and senseless acts of evil, then? How do you explain serial killers or school/church shooters?
GRIAN: I believe these people are sick, unbalanced, make poor choices, etc. I certainly don’t believe Satan led them to do it or anything like that. No, that would be taking
the responsibility away from the
person who commits the crime. All actions have consequences and Karma will be dealt to those who decide to hurt others. Since I believe in Karma and reincarnation, I believe these people will have a chance to be held accountable and forced to learn from their mistakes through the course of many, many lifetimes.
Sin is a difficult concept for pagans to deal with. It’s undeniable that people are born with an inner moral compass and all world cultures have a sense of right and wrong, consequences and justice. All of us have a sense that something is just not right as we witness the dark side of human nature and the myriad ways that people hurt each other. But how to fix what is broken inside us?
Pagans offer reincarnation, with a heavy payment schedule; Christians offer redemption, free.
Our culture often glorifies the idea of reincarnation, but Hindus understand its true horror, with the soul entrapped in endless cycles of pain and misery as you pay for your own misdeeds, and those of your ancestors (talk about slavery!). People also often forget to note that you’re as likely to return a roach or a frog as a Princess. A while back I wrote a post about this called The Dark Side of Reincarnation.
To the Christ follower, on the other hand, evil and pain are not natural. They are an aberration, a perversion of the way God intended for us to live. Sin has turned the world upside down and none of us can escape pain and problems. And this is where I really love the Gospel, because we don’t have to fix it or pay for it. Jesus did, once and for all. We don’t need karma, we don’t have to suffer locked inside the endless cycles of reincarnation, and we don’t
have to fear death.
Click here to read the earlier parts of this interview:
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SUSY FLORY is a writer, speaker, and journalist who inspires and challenges women to embrace a life of passion, boldness, & adventure. In your own unique way, YOU can change the world, starting in your own backyard. 
Hi Susy,
Just dropped by to see if you’d seen the following article about Christian teens and earth worship:
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=68203
Anyhow, what a great interview with you and Grian! Superb clarification of views. It’s always worthwhile to stop by your blog for a read.
Hi Susy. The interview is being presented well which I am very pleased with. I had a lovely time getting to know you and discussing beliefs.
On the subject of reincarnation… there are many different interpretations for this concept. Some people say that you can not move down the evolutionary ladder – say by coming back as a cockroach. Others say that you can. There does not seem to be one set opinion on it. It differs from culture to culture and sometimes person to person. My personal opinion is that there is no cruel and unusual karma. The appropriate concequences are always doled out by the Universe and sometimes in the life you’re currently living.
Thanks again for a lovely discussion and a great presentation of the topics. Though I may disagree with some of your beliefs that doesn’t mean I don’t respect them and you.
Many Blessings.
I hear you, Grian. I’m coming to understand that paganism is a many faceted spiritual movement and beliefs vary widely from person to person. My thoughts on reincarnation refer to the classical Hindu teachings, where rebirth does not always result in an upward series of transformations, but can just as likely result in a very painful downward cycle where all bets are off and you may indeed end up a beggar, a cripple, or even an ant or a roach. In addition, your own personal cycle of reincarnation is tied in with that of your family. Spiritual bondage, according to my Indian friend Premdas. I agree.
Interesting conversation.
Hi, Susy. I discovered your blog via Panthea: All Things are Goddess.
Briefly, I’m a former Christian, who gradually over the last couple of years of adhering to Christian beliefs and practices for ten years, made the choice that is wasn’t for me. Even so, While I have rejected Christianity for my own spiritual path, I still believe its a valid way of connecting with the divine. But there’s a lot more out there you know.
I personally do not have a problem with the idea that I sin. Sin, as I understand it, is imbalance with the divine, that manifests itself when we place our own desires above others (our partners, family, friends, fellow spiritual practitioners, society, and so one). I do not believe that we are wholly evil, or completely dead in our transgressions. I am also capable of acts of compassion and love for others. If I were inherently evil, I don’t think this would be possible.
Anyway just a few thoughts of the top of my head
I also believe in more than one life. I do not adhere to any strict system of rebirth (I’m not even sure I believe in Karma). But I think it is possible that there exists many level of realities, which may be open to us when we die.
I guess I’ll leave it there. Thanks for the interviews.
Blessings!
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SUSY RESPONDS….
I appreciate you bringing this up, Mahud. I think when Christians try to understand Pagan beliefs, there is confusion over the use of words like sin, heaven, and God because we have very different ideas about what those words mean. And I’m glad that you took the time to explain your take on the concept of sin, especially since you come from a Christian background.
I don’t think sin is just unkindness to people or animals, but at core a rebellion or rejection of God and a determination to live our own way and under our own authority. We’re created beings who rejected our Creator. This leads to being enslaved by our own fleshly appetites and hunger for self-empowerment. The antidote? Faith in Jesus, who paid for our sins and offers grace, mercy, and forgiveness.
“I don’t think sin is just unkindness to people or animals, but at core a rebellion or rejection of God and a determination to live our own way and under our own authority. We’re created beings who rejected our Creator. This leads to being enslaved by our own fleshly appetites and hunger for self-empowerment. The antidote? Faith in Jesus, who paid for our sins and offers grace, mercy, and forgiveness.”
I think it’s basically right to say that religious practitioners struggle with “fleshly appetites,” one way or another. Speaking for myself, I’m currently struggling with my spiritual practices vs. my own non-spiritual pursuits (not be able to drag myself away from the computer being one of them). I have been learning to meditate (to increase my mindfulness/awareness of myself, the world around me, and the sacred), but over the past couple of months I’ve let myself be distracted. Plus I get lazy.
Many religious philosophies speak of the potential harmfulness of selfish desire and offer methods to return us to a more ideal paradisaical state of being whether in this world or the next (or both).
I guess where I’m going with this, is that an encounter with God/Gods/Goddess(es)/Spirit, etc, is not always handed to us on a plate. Sometimes we experience a strong connection with the divine, other times we experience periods of spiritual dryness, but many who keep seeking (sometimes desperately and with a deep longing) the divine, in its many forms, achieve breakthroughs and undergo transforming experiences that creates an ever-deepening awareness of the divine that produces within ourselves what Paul called the fruit of the Spirit: Love, goodness, kindness, gentleness, etc.
Regarding ‘Self-empowerment,’ I think that many Pagans (including myself) credit any such internal power as being something much bigger than ourselves and acknowledge a sacred source. I think that’s the case with Wicca.
SUSY RESPONDS….
Mahud, good point about seasons of spiritual dryness. It seems so easy to be distracted from that which matters most, don’t you think? The book of Isaiah compares us to sheep, who’ve gone astray. We drift too easily, chasing the sweet patch of grass in the next field. That’s why I value the guide I have in the Bible; how do you know what’s true in the confusing buffet of beliefs that is Paganism?
“Mahud, good point about seasons of spiritual dryness. It seems so easy to be distracted from that which matters most, don’t you think? The book of Isaiah compares us to sheep, who’ve gone astray. We drift too easily, chasing the sweet patch of grass in the next field. That’s why I value the guide I have in the Bible; how do you know what’s true in the confusing buffet of beliefs that is Paganism?”
I think we can drift within our own faiths, as well as drift into “the sweet patch of grass in the next field.,” when we decide to follow another spiritual path (although, if the grass is truly sweet, why not eat it?), not because we reject God although some may reject God as Father or the Divine, but because we want to have a richer experience of divinity (which may have been lacking in our former practice). Experience is paramount. And such a shift in religious practice be it from Taoism to Buddhism, Buddhism to Christianity, Christianity to Druidism, etc is often necessary. We are all at different levels of spirituality and no religion has so far proved capable of providing all with what they need to live a spiritual life.
Jeffy Lily over at Druid Journal, posted a while back a comment at Meadowsweet and Myrrh :The Many & The One : A Look at the Common Purposes of Polytheism & Monotheism
“I tend to view Spirit as a substance from which deities and spirits are made. I think that if you focus too much on their commonalities, or “one-ness”, you miss a lot of richness in variation between them; but Spirit is tolerant, and will try to work with you regardless of your beliefs ”
“Which naturally brings us to tolerance. Since Spirit works hard to connect to people no matter who or what they worship (or whether they worship), it seems only natural that we should try to do the same.”
Regarding divine guidance, I place my no complete faith in any inerrant/infallible holy book, which seems to be an innovation of Mankind rather than God. To cite one example, Hindu’s have divinely revealed scriptures, known as Sruti (That which is heard).
I believe that the Divine can be revealed through all Spritual traditions, even practices of divination such a the I-Ching or Tarot.
I have found the Tarot to be as valuable as the Bible in providing divine guidance, but ultimately it comes down to our own interpretation.
Sorry if I’m babbling on too much
Susy asked Mahud: “how do you know what’s true in the confusing buffet of beliefs that is Paganism?”
I think we all know what’s right and what’s wrong. It’s wrong to cause harm. Plain and simple. I am a firm believer that this can be applied to just about anything. For example: if I don’t do the dishes because I am too absorbed with my personal desires then my family has nothing to eat off of. They may even begin to feel neglected, unloved, etc. So I have caused harm and I should do the dishes from now on.
It’s a simplistic example, but it makes a lot of sense to me.
As far as what’s true concerning the reality of God/dess… well I think that’s up to you and every other individual free-willed, rational-thinking being. Perception is undoubtedly reality which is why we need faith.