Part 5 & Conclusion: So a Goddess-centered Pagan and a Christian sat down to talk…
“The message of the Bible makes two great promises.One you’ve already referred to: it offers forgiveness of sins. The other we haven’t discussed–the hope of
eternal life. What do you believe about the afterlife? What happens to a pagan after death?”
It’s funny … Grian and I are just two ordinary women who decided to have a conversation about our spiritual beliefs. No harm in that, right? Yet both of us were nervous, afraid of being attacked by the other, or ridiculed, or misrepresented. It’s not often that pagans and Christians sit down to talk. We pretty much live and move and worship in separate circles.
I can’t speak for Grian, but I also worried about what my Christian friends, family, and colleagues would say. I wondered if they would think it was okay to talk to a pagan or a witch, and to let
them share their beliefs on my blog.
There are so many opinions and judgments and opinions and denominations floating around in the
Christian world that it can be very confusing to know the right path.
This is how I solve that problem: I look to Jesus. What did he do? Did he have conversations with pagans? Yes. Did he argue with or judge them? No. He listened, he cared, he offered hope and healing. If they weren’t interested, he let them walk away.
Being a Christ follower is at heart about relationship–with Jesus and with people. In that spirit, here’s the last part of my conversation with Grian.
GRIAN: Now… I’m about to touch on another touchy part, but I want to be honest. Please forgive me if the statements that follow are offensive.
After much study I have come to see all mythology equally. What I mean by that is that I see the Bible as mythology – Jewish/Middle Eastern mythology to be more specific. For me it is no different than Greek or Roman mythology. I think that taking mythology literally is dangerous but that myth can also serve a wonderful purpose to the human psyche. Mythology can teach lessons through parables, yet they remain parables. I have a hard time with the literal interpretation of the Bible (or any myth for that matter) and thus cannot subscribe to Christianity itself. I honestly feel as though I grew out of those beliefs. I do know that sounds a little condescending and I really don’t mean it to. It’s simply the only way I know how to describe it. I respect and honor anyone who follows their faith with a true heart and mean no disrespect at all.
SUSY: I’m not offended; in fact, I’m honored and grateful that you would open up and share your own personal beliefs with me. I think we could probably have a long conversation about the Bible, but maybe that’s for another conversation. But let me just say that the Bible is widely accepted as a historical document, with more textual support than any other ancient document. In addition, it has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, and it transforms lives.
The message of the Bible makes two great promises. One you’ve already referred to: it offers forgiveness of sins. The other we haven’t discussed–the hope of eternal life. What do you believe about the afterlife? What happens to a pagan after death?
GRIAN: On the Bible… I hope this doesn’t come out wrong, but I honestly believe the Bible (and any spiritual text for that matter) is entirely open to interpretation.
On the afterlife… I believe life continues through the process of reincarnation. I believe all life returns to the Goddess at the time of death and then the spirit chooses whether or not they are ready to live another lifetime. The ultimate result of those lifetimes is similar to what Buddhists call Nirvana. Trideans refer to this
god-head level of existence as Completion. To sum up a bit, I believe in life after death – that energy cannot truly be created or destroyed, only transformed.
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So that’s it. Perhaps in the future we’ll get to talk again, but my hope is that Grian’s words will help Christians to understand some of the core beliefs of paganism. To end, here’s a quick summary of some of the differences between Christianity and paganism:
- Pagans believe God is an energy force, existing and part of everything in the universe, and composed of both feminine and masculine aspects; Christians hold that God is a unique being, holy and all powerful, separate from his creation.
- Pagans believe Jesus was a good, holy, enlightened man. Christians believe Jesus to be the only son of God, the only sinless man who ever lived, who died sacrifically and rose again, conquering death.
- Pagans have no concept of sin or salvation. Christians believe we have all broken relationship with our creator God by going our own way, following our selfish natural impulses.
- Pagans believe people have divinity within, and that ultimately God/Goddess can be discovered and cultivated inside each person. Christians look to God as separate, holy, creator, sustainer, redeemer. We can have a relationship with him, but we are not the same as him.
- Paganism promises reincarnation and rebirth while advancing towards personal godhood. Christians believe human life and death happens once, and after that, judgment.
- Pagans feel that no savior or salvation is needed and that all religions lead in the same direction. Christians look to Jesus to save us, through grace, from our sin and despair. His grace, if accepted, results in the gift of eternal life. All religions are not the same; “salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
- Pagans embrace magic and other occultic practices as the empowering practice of harnessing the energy of the universe to effect positive change. Christian fear and avoid any sort of magical practices as condemned in the Bible, looking instead to God alone to lead, guide, act, protect, heal, and bless.
Click here to read the earlier parts of “So a Goddess-centered pagan and a Christian sat down to talk…”
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SUSY FLORY is a New York Times best selling author, speaker, and journalist who searches out big stories with happy endings. She's I'm always looking for true stories that inspire and challenge her readers to embrace a life of passion, boldness, & adventure. 
While I applaud your openness to discussion, I’m afraid your summation is a bit too simplistic. Given your goal of helping Evangelical Christians understand something about those who believe very differently, it may actually be counterproductive. The term “Pagan” (and note that in this usage it is a proper noun, just as Christian or Muslim are) is an umbrella term that encompasses a wide number of very disparate religions rather than a single belief system with varying denominations. It is more akin to saying “Eastern religions”. Due to that fact, it is not possible to say “Pagans believe…..” but should rather be “Some Pagans believe….” or, in this case, “Trideans believe….”.
I have noted a tendency among Christians to think of the various Neopagan/Pagan religions as similar in organization to denominations of Christianity—groups with somewhat different practices but sharing a set of core beliefs. This is a natural mistake given their experience with religious organization but not the case at all. The religions that are grouped under the umbrella term “Neopagan” or “Pagan” can be farther apart in belief and practice from each other than Buddhism, Sikhism and Evangelical Christianity are.
Imagine interviewing Warren Jeffs or Bishop Spong and then going forward to say “So we can see that all Christians believe…..” or interviewing a Sunni Muslim and saying “So we can see that all monotheists believe….” It would not give an accurate picture of the diversity in those communities.
So, yes, the above is a representation of the core beliefs of your correspondent and there are others who would agree with all of that. There are also a great many folks who identify or are labeled as Pagan/Neopagan who believe and practice in a radically different fashion. This post does, however, give at least a starting point for discussions. Thanks.
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SUSY RESPONDS…
You may be right. I’ve learned that “Pagan” is an umbrella term for a very diverse group of spiritual beliefs. I also understand that Paganism is an experience-based religion without a set theology and that I can’t assume that I know exactly what you or any other Pagan believes. My focus is certainly on Goddess worship, however, so perhaps I should stick to that term more closely. And as I summarize my observations and interviews, you are invited to disagree and interact with my opinions and observations. I’m not an expert on Goddess worship; I’m just taking a look and trying to figure out what I’m looking at and what I think about it.
My point was that the term “Paganism” does *not* refer to any single religion. There is no “an” or “a”. This is a frequent and key misunderstanding. “Paganism” is an umbrella term that refers to a loose grouping of a wide variety of distinct and disparate religions whose primary connection is that they are not Abrahamic. Some of the religions under that umbrella may have more points of similarity than others.
For example, both a Wiccan and I (a polytheistic Hellenic Neopagan) would be described as Neopagan or Pagan. This is despite the fact that I have very little in common religiously with a Wiccan (the largest religion in the US within the Neopagan umbrella). Our understandings of the nature (and number) of the Gods, methods of worship/practice, humanity’s place in the universe, our relationship with nature, how the ancient writings should be viewed, etc all differ greatly. Likewise, I have very little in common with those who practice Goddess worship, either from a New Age or a Neopagan perspective (and those two terms are likewise not interchangeable, though there is overlap *g*).
Yes, I would say that if Goddess worship is your actual focus for comparison, using that term instead of “Paganism” would be more accurate. Rather like saying “Baptist” rather than “Orthodox Jew” or “Roman Catholic” when you are discussing Baptist theology. Certainly all three are monotheists, but there are a few key differences *g*.
BTW, you might find the following link to be of interest as you research Goddess worship. It is an email conversation between Ian Hodder, the head of the archaeological expedition at Catalhoyuk, and the late Anita Louise, a leader in the Goddess movement.
http://www.catalhoyuk.com/library/goddess.html
SUSY RESPONDS….
Karen,
Believe me, I’m not trying to pigeonhole you into any particular belief system. The more I look into Goddess worship, the more I see an infinite buffet table of deities, beliefs, practices, traditions, and mythologies. Pagan websites often feature epic arguments and disagreements over how best to describe what they believe and do. However, it seems that one thing Pagans and Goddess devotees do have in common across the board is the interest in magick. I wrote a post about that called “The Magick Family” and you can see it here: http://goddessworshipblog.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/01/the_magick_fami.html
No, you are trying to make all the religions that are loosely grouped under the umbrella term “Pagan” be identical, part of one overall religion and then to further equate that non-existant “Paganism” with what you are terming Goddess worship.
This isn’t a case of “pigeonholing” as much as it is making inaccurate generalizations. No, all Pagan religions do not have an interest in magic(k) any more than all Christians teach transubstantiation or all Americans are Republicans. Mine, for instance, does not include spell-casting or the like.
As to the “epic arguments”, shall I point you to a few discussions between various branches of Protestant Christianity, or those between Roman Catholics and Protestants?*wink* Neopagans certainly don’t hold the monopoly on that!
Re: your cited post, those interested in scholarship on the history of Wicca would do well to look for British historian Ronald Hutton’s “Triumph of the Moon: A history of modern Pagan Witchcraft”. Fascinating book. Chas Clifton’s “Her Hidden Children” focuses on Wicca in America and has had very good reviews. I have read Hutton’s book but not Clifton’s.
Yes, Paganism is absolutely an umbrella term that includes so many different belief systems but there are some general commonalities. I don’t know that magic use would necessarily be one of them though.
I personally don’t practice magic as say a Wiccan might. My belief is that what Wiccans and some other branches of Paganism consider magic, I consider prayer. It’s no different in my opinion and I personally believe calling it magic makes it a bit discrediting.
Goddess Worship can also be seen as an umbrella term. There is the possibility for as many traditions as there are known faces of the Goddess. The beliefs, practices, etc. may all be determined by the mythology of that Goddess and the way it is interpreted.
As Karen said, this is all very much the same as there being a lot of denominations within Christianity – or just about any religion for that matter.
Also, the above bullet points don’t reflect exactly “the correspondent” (thats me *wink*) but reflect what Susy herself has learned about Paganism/Goddess Worship, etc. I’d say she’s not all that off base, but there will always be some traditions that simply don’t fall under the most common characteristics. It would be a monumental task to catalog every tradition within Paganism and its various off-shoots to see what they believed in.
Brava to the both of you for braving this religious dialog. I’m always saddened by the number of Christians who are so terrified of their children’s curiosity towards nature religions. I’ve been in Christian bookstores which have scads of titles warning parents about Pagans inducting their kids. Yet if there’s one thing that most Pagans DON’T do, it’s proselytize, so this fear is unfounded. Thank you for this talk which I hope will enlighten your Christian readers that most Pagans are not slavering child abductees.
“Pagans believe people have divinity within, and that ultimately God/Goddess can be discovered and cultivated inside each person. Christians look to God as separate, holy, creator, sustainer, redeemer. We can have a relationship with him, but we are not the same as him.”
What about “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you?” I don’t think all Pagans believe they are God~Goddess incarnate, because of course that would be just pure spiritual hubris. Pagans access the God~dess through a variety of prayer, meditation, and other forms of ritual, and they do believe they can evolve spiritually by consistent religious observance. Many Pagans believe they have a bit of Goddess within them the same way Christians believe they have a bit of God in them. “I created thee in My image.”
If you are still wondering why some people leave Christianity (or Judaism) for Paganism, it’s mainly that a great many people are needing to realize the Divine in Nature, & not just humanity. I know that Christians argue among themselves about whether animals have souls, which to me is very sad. The western religions, be they Judaism, Christianity or Islam, tend to have a negative view of Nature. If something’s bad, you say “Oh, it’s of this world” or “It’s of the flesh.” Sometimes we Pagans think that you Christians never wanted to be on this beautiful planet in the first place. In fact, some of you can’t wait for the Rapture to blast you outta here.
There is a sad disconnect between humanity and the rest of life on this planet. And the western religions’ attitude that the only good Earth is a _subjugated_ Earth is a big part of the problem. Even C.S. Lewis realized this. He was a devout Christian who saw this disconnect and admitted that “the ecstatic joy of the Old Religions” towards Nature was what Christianity seemed to lack. That’s why he wrote Narnia. Forgive me for surpressing a Pagan chuckle at C.S. Lewis’s need to Christianize Fauns & Dryads, but I definitely applaud his attempt to reintroduce Christians to the beauty & granduer of their Creator’s Creation with love and much needed appreciation.
Sorry for rambling, but I guess I had to get that out. Hopefully I clarified a few things. Sorry if I stepped on any toes. Thanks again for this refreshing blog.