Comments on: Part 5 & Conclusion: So a Goddess-centered Pagan and a Christian sat down to talk…

By: Heather Moore

Heather Moore — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:52:44 +0000

Brava to the both of you for braving this religious dialog. I’m always saddened by the number of Christians who are so terrified of their children’s curiosity towards nature religions. I’ve been in Christian bookstores which have scads of titles warning parents about Pagans inducting their kids. Yet if there’s one thing that most Pagans DON’T do, it’s proselytize, so this fear is unfounded. Thank you for this talk which I hope will enlighten your Christian readers that most Pagans are not slavering child abductees.
“Pagans believe people have divinity within, and that ultimately God/Goddess can be discovered and cultivated inside each person. Christians look to God as separate, holy, creator, sustainer, redeemer. We can have a relationship with him, but we are not the same as him.”
What about “The Kingdom of Heaven is within you?” I don’t think all Pagans believe they are God~Goddess incarnate, because of course that would be just pure spiritual hubris. Pagans access the God~dess through a variety of prayer, meditation, and other forms of ritual, and they do believe they can evolve spiritually by consistent religious observance. Many Pagans believe they have a bit of Goddess within them the same way Christians believe they have a bit of God in them. “I created thee in My image.”
If you are still wondering why some people leave Christianity (or Judaism) for Paganism, it’s mainly that a great many people are needing to realize the Divine in Nature, & not just humanity. I know that Christians argue among themselves about whether animals have souls, which to me is very sad. The western religions, be they Judaism, Christianity or Islam, tend to have a negative view of Nature. If something’s bad, you say “Oh, it’s of this world” or “It’s of the flesh.” Sometimes we Pagans think that you Christians never wanted to be on this beautiful planet in the first place. In fact, some of you can’t wait for the Rapture to blast you outta here.
There is a sad disconnect between humanity and the rest of life on this planet. And the western religions’ attitude that the only good Earth is a _subjugated_ Earth is a big part of the problem. Even C.S. Lewis realized this. He was a devout Christian who saw this disconnect and admitted that “the ecstatic joy of the Old Religions” towards Nature was what Christianity seemed to lack. That’s why he wrote Narnia. Forgive me for surpressing a Pagan chuckle at C.S. Lewis’s need to Christianize Fauns & Dryads, but I definitely applaud his attempt to reintroduce Christians to the beauty & granduer of their Creator’s Creation with love and much needed appreciation.
Sorry for rambling, but I guess I had to get that out. Hopefully I clarified a few things. Sorry if I stepped on any toes. Thanks again for this refreshing blog.

By: Grian

Grian — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:52:00 +0000

Yes, Paganism is absolutely an umbrella term that includes so many different belief systems but there are some general commonalities. I don’t know that magic use would necessarily be one of them though.
I personally don’t practice magic as say a Wiccan might. My belief is that what Wiccans and some other branches of Paganism consider magic, I consider prayer. It’s no different in my opinion and I personally believe calling it magic makes it a bit discrediting.
Goddess Worship can also be seen as an umbrella term. There is the possibility for as many traditions as there are known faces of the Goddess. The beliefs, practices, etc. may all be determined by the mythology of that Goddess and the way it is interpreted.
As Karen said, this is all very much the same as there being a lot of denominations within Christianity – or just about any religion for that matter.
Also, the above bullet points don’t reflect exactly “the correspondent” (thats me *wink*) but reflect what Susy herself has learned about Paganism/Goddess Worship, etc. I’d say she’s not all that off base, but there will always be some traditions that simply don’t fall under the most common characteristics. It would be a monumental task to catalog every tradition within Paganism and its various off-shoots to see what they believed in.

By: Karen

Karen — Tue, 06 May 2008 20:08:02 +0000

No, you are trying to make all the religions that are loosely grouped under the umbrella term “Pagan” be identical, part of one overall religion and then to further equate that non-existant “Paganism” with what you are terming Goddess worship.
This isn’t a case of “pigeonholing” as much as it is making inaccurate generalizations. No, all Pagan religions do not have an interest in magic(k) any more than all Christians teach transubstantiation or all Americans are Republicans. Mine, for instance, does not include spell-casting or the like.
As to the “epic arguments”, shall I point you to a few discussions between various branches of Protestant Christianity, or those between Roman Catholics and Protestants?*wink* Neopagans certainly don’t hold the monopoly on that!
Re: your cited post, those interested in scholarship on the history of Wicca would do well to look for British historian Ronald Hutton’s “Triumph of the Moon: A history of modern Pagan Witchcraft”. Fascinating book. Chas Clifton’s “Her Hidden Children” focuses on Wicca in America and has had very good reviews. I have read Hutton’s book but not Clifton’s.

By: Susy

Susy — Tue, 06 May 2008 16:06:49 +0000

SUSY RESPONDS….
Karen,
Believe me, I’m not trying to pigeonhole you into any particular belief system. The more I look into Goddess worship, the more I see an infinite buffet table of deities, beliefs, practices, traditions, and mythologies. Pagan websites often feature epic arguments and disagreements over how best to describe what they believe and do. However, it seems that one thing Pagans and Goddess devotees do have in common across the board is the interest in magick. I wrote a post about that called “The Magick Family” and you can see it here: http://goddessworshipblog.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/01/the_magick_fami.html

By: Karen

Karen — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 16:35:16 +0000

My point was that the term “Paganism” does *not* refer to any single religion. There is no “an” or “a”. This is a frequent and key misunderstanding. “Paganism” is an umbrella term that refers to a loose grouping of a wide variety of distinct and disparate religions whose primary connection is that they are not Abrahamic. Some of the religions under that umbrella may have more points of similarity than others.
For example, both a Wiccan and I (a polytheistic Hellenic Neopagan) would be described as Neopagan or Pagan. This is despite the fact that I have very little in common religiously with a Wiccan (the largest religion in the US within the Neopagan umbrella). Our understandings of the nature (and number) of the Gods, methods of worship/practice, humanity’s place in the universe, our relationship with nature, how the ancient writings should be viewed, etc all differ greatly. Likewise, I have very little in common with those who practice Goddess worship, either from a New Age or a Neopagan perspective (and those two terms are likewise not interchangeable, though there is overlap *g*).
Yes, I would say that if Goddess worship is your actual focus for comparison, using that term instead of “Paganism” would be more accurate. Rather like saying “Baptist” rather than “Orthodox Jew” or “Roman Catholic” when you are discussing Baptist theology. Certainly all three are monotheists, but there are a few key differences *g*.
BTW, you might find the following link to be of interest as you research Goddess worship. It is an email conversation between Ian Hodder, the head of the archaeological expedition at Catalhoyuk, and the late Anita Louise, a leader in the Goddess movement.
http://www.catalhoyuk.com/library/goddess.html

By: Karen

Karen — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:53:45 +0000

While I applaud your openness to discussion, I’m afraid your summation is a bit too simplistic. Given your goal of helping Evangelical Christians understand something about those who believe very differently, it may actually be counterproductive. The term “Pagan” (and note that in this usage it is a proper noun, just as Christian or Muslim are) is an umbrella term that encompasses a wide number of very disparate religions rather than a single belief system with varying denominations. It is more akin to saying “Eastern religions”. Due to that fact, it is not possible to say “Pagans believe…..” but should rather be “Some Pagans believe….” or, in this case, “Trideans believe….”.
I have noted a tendency among Christians to think of the various Neopagan/Pagan religions as similar in organization to denominations of Christianity—groups with somewhat different practices but sharing a set of core beliefs. This is a natural mistake given their experience with religious organization but not the case at all. The religions that are grouped under the umbrella term “Neopagan” or “Pagan” can be farther apart in belief and practice from each other than Buddhism, Sikhism and Evangelical Christianity are.
Imagine interviewing Warren Jeffs or Bishop Spong and then going forward to say “So we can see that all Christians believe…..” or interviewing a Sunni Muslim and saying “So we can see that all monotheists believe….” It would not give an accurate picture of the diversity in those communities.
So, yes, the above is a representation of the core beliefs of your correspondent and there are others who would agree with all of that. There are also a great many folks who identify or are labeled as Pagan/Neopagan who believe and practice in a radically different fashion. This post does, however, give at least a starting point for discussions. Thanks.
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SUSY RESPONDS…
You may be right. I’ve learned that “Pagan” is an umbrella term for a very diverse group of spiritual beliefs. I also understand that Paganism is an experience-based religion without a set theology and that I can’t assume that I know exactly what you or any other Pagan believes. My focus is certainly on Goddess worship, however, so perhaps I should stick to that term more closely. And as I summarize my observations and interviews, you are invited to disagree and interact with my opinions and observations. I’m not an expert on Goddess worship; I’m just taking a look and trying to figure out what I’m looking at and what I think about it.