“The message of the Bible makes two great promises.One you’ve already referred to: it offers forgiveness of sins. The other we haven’t discussed–the hope of
eternal life. What do you believe about the afterlife? What happens to a pagan after death?”

It’s funny … Grian and I are just two ordinary women who decided to have a conversation about our spiritual beliefs. No harm in that, right? Yet both of us were nervous, afraid of being attacked by the other, or ridiculed, or misrepresented. It’s not often that pagans and Christians sit down to talk. We pretty much live and move and worship in separate circles.

I can’t speak for Grian, but I also worried about what my Christian friends, family, and colleagues would say. I wondered if they would think it was okay to talk to a pagan or a witch, and to let them share their beliefs on my blog.

There are so many opinions and judgments and opinions and denominations floating around in the
Christian world that it can be very confusing to know the right path.

This is how I solve that problem: I look to Jesus. What did he do? Did he have conversations with pagans? Yes. Did he argue with or judge them? No. He listened, he cared, he offered hope and healing. If they weren’t interested, he let them walk away.

Being a Christ follower is at heart about relationship–with Jesus and with people. In that spirit, here’s the last part of my conversation with Grian.

GRIAN: Now… I’m about to touch on another touchy part, but I want to be honest. Please forgive me if the statements that follow are offensive.

After much study I have come to see all mythology equally. What I mean by that is that I see the Bible as mythology – Jewish/Middle Eastern mythology to be more specific. For me it is no different than Greek or Roman mythology. I think that taking mythology literally is dangerous but that myth can also serve a wonderful purpose to the human psyche. Mythology can teach lessons through parables, yet they remain parables. I have a hard time with the literal interpretation of the Bible (or any myth for that matter) and thus cannot subscribe to Christianity itself. I honestly feel as though I grew out of those beliefs. I do know that sounds a little condescending and I really don’t mean it to. It’s simply the only way I know how to describe it. I respect and honor anyone who follows their faith with a true heart and mean no disrespect at all.

SUSY: I’m not offended; in fact, I’m honored and grateful that you would open up and share your own personal beliefs with me. I think we could probably have a long conversation about the Bible, but maybe that’s for another conversation. But let me just say that the Bible is widely accepted as a historical document, with more textual support than any other ancient document. In addition, it has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, and it transforms lives.

The message of the Bible makes two great promises. One you’ve already referred to: it offers forgiveness of sins. The other we haven’t discussed–the hope of eternal life. What do you believe about the afterlife? What happens to a pagan after death?

GRIAN: On the Bible… I hope this doesn’t come out wrong, but I honestly believe the Bible (and any spiritual text for that matter) is entirely open to interpretation.

On the afterlife… I believe life continues through the process of reincarnation. I believe all life returns to the Goddess at the time of death and then the spirit chooses whether or not they are ready to live another lifetime. The ultimate result of those lifetimes is similar to what Buddhists call Nirvana. Trideans refer to this
god-head level of existence as Completion. To sum up a bit, I believe in life after death – that energy cannot truly be created or destroyed, only transformed.

********************************
So that’s it. Perhaps in the future we’ll get to talk again, but my hope is that Grian’s words will help Christians to understand some of the core beliefs of paganism. To end, here’s a quick summary of some of the differences between Christianity and paganism:

• Pagans believe God is an energy force, existing and part of everything in the universe, and composed of both feminine and masculine aspects; Christians hold that God is a unique being, holy and all powerful, separate from his creation.
• Pagans believe Jesus was a good, holy, enlightened man. Christians believe Jesus to be the only son of God, the only sinless man who ever lived, who died sacrifically and rose again, conquering death.
• Pagans have no concept of sin or salvation. Christians believe we have all broken relationship with our creator God by going our own way, following our selfish natural impulses.
• Pagans believe people have divinity within, and that ultimately God/Goddess can be discovered and cultivated inside each person. Christians look to God as separate, holy, creator, sustainer, redeemer. We can have a relationship with him, but we are not the same as him.
• Paganism promises reincarnation and rebirth while advancing towards personal godhood. Christians believe human life and death happens once, and after that, judgment.
• Pagans feel that no savior or salvation is needed and that all religions lead in the same direction. Christians look to Jesus to save us, through grace, from our sin and despair. His grace, if accepted, results in the gift of eternal life. All religions are not the same; “salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
• Pagans embrace magic and other occultic practices as the empowering practice of harnessing the energy of the universe to effect positive change. Christian fear and avoid any sort of magical practices as condemned in the Bible, looking instead to God alone to lead, guide, act, protect, heal, and bless.

Click here to read the earlier parts of “So a Goddess-centered pagan and a Christian sat down to talk…”

• Part 1
• Part 2
• Part 3
• Part 4

]]> http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-5-conclusion-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/feed/ 6 http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-4-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/ http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-4-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/#comments Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:40:16 +0000 Susy Flory http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-4-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/

“I do believe that Pagans are misunderstood…we are your normal, everyday people.”

As we began to dig deeper into pagan philosophy, some of the major differences between what Grian and I believe began to surface. There’s not much we agree on when it comes to sin, forgiveness, redemption, and evil. Grian believes that human problems and pain are natural, just part of an evolutionary system where the strong survive and the weak do not. And when you act badly or hurt someone, you pay for it in your next life, which is just another round in the cycle of reincarnation. Gather your courage and read on…

SUSY: Do you feel that Goddess worshippers or pagans are misunderstood by Christians? What are some of the common misconceptions?

GRIAN: Yes, I do believe that Pagans are misunderstood. I assume the average consensus among Christians is that most of us are silly, role-playing types of people who dress up like there’s a Renaissance Festival every day. Or that we are focused on some sort of dark satanic sort of worship and obsessed with the gaining of personal power.

Instead we are your normal, everyday people – both men and women with families going about our daily lives and doing the best we can to be good people. I think there is a lot of fear among Christian communities in regards to Pagans, though that may be an oversimplification of the reality.

SUSY: Hmmm…I’m going to speak here for Christians I know, and I don’t think I would say there is a conception that pagans are silly. I think your second view is much more likely. Christians familiar with the Bible are aware of what it has to say about both pagans and witches and want to honor God by following his guidelines to stay away from any sort of witchcraft or sorcery. Both the Old and New Testament ban any sort of idol worship, along with specific mention of the goddess (referring to the ancient Mesopotamian fertility cults). However, I think you’re right that Pagans are misunderstood because many of us haven’t taken the time to understand what you believe, and why, or taken the time to get to know you as
people, rather than a simplistic label. That would definitely have described me in the past, and for that I apologize! God is a perfect balance of truth and
grace; too often we emphasize truth and we lack grace. Both are necessary.

GRIAN: I understand what the Bible says about those things and respectfully have much different opinions. I believe the Bible says those things specifically to dictate what the beliefs of ancient Jewish (and later Christian) people should practice and believe. I consider it a guidebook by which a specific spiritual tradition is laid out not unlike many other sacred texts of antiquity and today. It is important for readers to understand that I do not believe in one true religion and hold many sacred writings in
high esteem even if I don’t subscribe to all of the ideas within them. I also believe that the Bible is written a certain way due to a competition of sorts where religious leaders were battling for followers with other faiths of the time. Of course it would say to stay away from other religions and forms of worship.

SUSY: What do you find in goddess worship that you didn’t find in the church of your childhood? What is the appeal?

GRIAN: Okay, here is where some people might get very offended. Unfortunately, to answer the question appropriately it might be necessary to say some things that will be less than popular. Rest assured, no disrespect is intended.

I do not believe in sin in the traditional sense.

I believe if there is such a thing then it exists only in moments where we hurt another. I believe in Karma and the idea that you can carry your good and bad deeds around with you through lifetimes.

Since I don’t believe in the idea of sin then it would also be obvious that I don’t believe in original sin. That whole idea just really eats at me. I refuse
to believe people are inherently evil. Sure we make mistakes, and lots of them.

But without those mistakes I don’t believe we can evolve as spiritual beings. I actually think if you tell someone that they are inherently bad then they will eventually begin to believe you and may even use that idea as a crutch. How often could someone call a child evil or “devil child” before they are convinced they really are hell spawn? Maybe they will even do something bad and respond with “Well, I’m sinful and bad. What did you expect from me?” I am not implying that is a Christian thing to do… only using it as an example.

After saying that it will be no surprise to hear that I don’t believe in hell or the devil. For starters, I believe the image of the devil is a perverted version of the ancient Horned God of Paganism and a demonization of a Goddess of Light or Venus. But we all know the victors write the history books. Beside the point, in all honesty I see the idea of the devil as a metaphor for the “darker” aspects of God/dess. I believe there can be no light without dark and vice versa. I believe both exist in all life and within God/dess.

Now by darkness I am not talking about “evil.” I am talking about the kind of necessary destruction we see in Nature. Everything that lives must also die so that more life can be created. This “dark” element is necessary or there would never be any sort of transformation that leads to creation. All life would cease to exist. For something to be created other things must be destroyed or transformed to make something new.

SUSY: What do you do with random and senseless acts of evil, then? How do you explain serial killers or school/church shooters?

GRIAN:  I believe these people are sick, unbalanced, make poor choices, etc. I certainly don’t believe Satan led them to do it or anything like that. No, that would be taking
the responsibility away from the person who commits the crime. All actions have consequences and Karma will be dealt to those who decide to hurt others. Since I believe in Karma and reincarnation, I believe these people will have a chance to be held accountable and forced to learn from their mistakes through the course of many, many lifetimes.

Sin is a difficult concept for pagans to deal with. It’s undeniable that people are born with an inner moral compass and all world cultures have a sense of right and wrong, consequences and justice. All of us have a sense that something is just not right as we witness the dark side of human nature and the myriad ways that people hurt each other. But how to fix what is broken inside us?

Pagans offer reincarnation, with a heavy payment schedule; Christians offer redemption, free.

Our culture often glorifies the idea of reincarnation, but Hindus understand its true horror, with the soul entrapped in endless cycles of pain and misery as you pay for your own misdeeds, and those of your ancestors (talk about slavery!). People also often forget to note that you’re as likely to return a roach or a frog as a Princess. A while back I wrote a post about this called  The Dark Side of Reincarnation.

To the Christ follower, on the other hand, evil and pain are not natural. They are an aberration, a perversion of the way God intended for us to live. Sin has turned the world upside down and none of us can escape pain and problems. And this is where I really love the Gospel, because we don’t have to fix it or pay for it. Jesus did, once and for all. We don’t need karma, we don’t have to suffer locked inside the endless cycles of reincarnation, and we don’t
have to fear death.

Click here to read the earlier parts of this interview:

• Part 1
• Part 2
• Part 3

“If nature manifests the Goddess, what do you do with the fact of natural disasters, or the hard, uncaring, even bloody side of nature?”

In this portion of the interview, Grian touches on some key differences between Christian and pagan beliefs. The interesting thing is that she doesn’t see them as that different. Perhaps it’s a generational issue; Grian is a decade or so younger than me, and it’s often been observed that post-modern thought is characterized by syncretism, which means blending and merging various belief systems while minimizing the differences.

But it is probably also a function of where we believe truth comes from: Christians maintain our beliefs as outlined in the Bible, God’s unchanging revelation of truth and the road map for our lives. Pagans, on the other hand, define their beliefs in terms of their individual, unique, and very personal experiences. There is no written standard, no bedrock to cling to.

When we get to the end of the interview, in another couple of posts or so, I’m going to summarize some of the key differences in our beliefs as revealed in this pagan/Christian conversation. I’ll also highlight some of the similarities. After all, we’re both spiritual seekers!

Here’s Part 3…

SUSY: You said that you don’t consider yourself a Wiccan. Do you have a particular spiritual belief system that you identify with? Can you describe it?

GRIAN: I consider myself a Goddess-centered Pagan and I practice Tridea. Tridea is a tradition of Goddess Religion that focuses on Nature and its cycles – finding
spiritual meaning through seeing the Goddess in all things. Nature is considered the sacred text or blueprint by which the Goddess is understood and realized.

SUSY: I see a similarity between us here, in that Christians believe God reveals himself through nature (and also through people’s consciences). However, we differ in that I believe God primarily reveals himself through the Bible, and through the life of Jesus. If nature manifests the Goddess, what do you do with the fact of natural disasters, or the hard, uncaring, even bloody side of nature? What do those things say about the Goddess?

GRIAN: As I mentioned earlier I believe in a “darker” aspect of the Goddess. I usually put that word in quotes because it can be misleading. This
“darker” aspect deals primarily with the absolutely necessary reality of physical death (destruction) that leads to transformation (both physically and spiritually). A metaphor I often use is the burning of wood in a fire. The wood is destroyed yet also transformed into heat and ash. It has not ceased to exist, only taken on new form. Along those same lines; when a forest fire happens it is awful and scary, but eventually the forest is more fertile and full of life than it was before.

Another example can be seen in human creation. When a person is created the two cells that came from their parents have to be destroyed in order to create something new. None of us are still those two cells. We are the beings those two cells were transformed into.

The main point I am trying to get at is that nothing can be created without something first being destroyed. This is not a bad thing at all. It is how our planet works and how life itself works. While people mourn the victims of natural disasters and perhaps even fear the destructive qualities of nature;
I believe everything must happen for a reason. I believe in natural order that may not always be pretty or pleasant, but it is necessary and part of Divinity’s plan.

These ideas and practices are not new, nor are they specific to one religion. Instead they are considered universal and timeless. Terms that may help with these descriptions are Pantheism and Panentheism. Wikipedia has good definitions for both.

SUSY: What are some of your spiritual practices? Christians pray, tithe, read and study the Bible, take communion, and worship God together as a church. Do you have your own counterparts to these practices?

GRIAN: Absolutely. We pray as well; quite often and as a group. While Trideans don’t focus on magic as a practice, it is a firm belief that spells (as many Wiccans and Pagans practice) are a form of prayer. The only difference is that there are some props involved. I often find this helpful in explaining the use of magic or spell
work to people of other faiths. Again, I do not consider magic (as it is identified in Wicca) as a part of my religion. Instead I see magic as prayer with props and find only a small amount of distinction between it and the prayer practices of other faiths.

SUSY: One important distinction is that Christians pray to God with a request that he take action, and that His will be done, while it seems that pagans pray and cast spells
in an effort to effect change themselves. To us prayer is a conversation, a child with his or her Dad, with no props needed. So, that leads me to ask–why the props?

GRIAN: I think the way Pagans pray is not that different at all. I can only speak for myself though. Personally, I also have conversations with Goddess and ask for her help. Many times I have completely surrendered to her will. But I also believe I have some power over situations as well. I think this is the main distinction. I don’t feel subordinate to Goddess. Instead I am a part of her – I am Goddess as I believe everyone and everything else is. I do not believe in a separation between the Goddess and everything else, but instead a oneness of all things. So, I think what you’re referring to when Pagans effect change themselves is because we believe we are also divine.

On the issue of props … Catholics use rosaries, some Christians may choose to focus on a crucifix during prayer, Buddhists use a collection of prayer items like oil lamps, incense, etc. I think these practices are more or less the same. Some people feel the need for elaborate spell setups that help them focus the intent of their prayers. Others like myself prefer a few simple candles, incense, and an altar figure or two. I enjoy the use of idols and even create them with my own hands. I don’t see this as anything more than a way to focus meditative energy for prayer. Actually, when I create Goddess images I consider it a form of worship. I am an artist after all, and cannot fathom why this form of “idolatry” would be any different than renaissance painters portraying Christ and the Virgin in oils or egg tempera.

More from this interview in my next post. Here’s a quick preview of questions in part 4:

• What are some of the common misconceptions Christians have about pagans?
• What do you find in goddess worship that you didn’t find in the church of your childhood?

]]> http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-3-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/feed/ 2 http://www.susyflory.com/2006/unmasking-the-goddess/ http://www.susyflory.com/2006/unmasking-the-goddess/#comments Tue, 10 Oct 2006 22:37:58 +0000 Susy Flory http://www.susyflory.com/2006/unmasking-the-goddess/ Not long ago, I wrote a book called Fear Not Da Vinci: How to use the best-selling novel to share your faith. Dan Brown’s blockbuster novel, with 50 million copies in print, falsely claims that Mary Magdalene and Jesus were married, that Mary’s special relationship to Christ endowed her with the true leadership of the church, and that she carried on an ancient tradition of special feminine holiness. Brown tapped into a growing spiritual movement: goddess worship.

As I did research for Fear Not Da Vinci, I was shocked as I came across thousands of websites devoted to goddess worship, as well as books, magazines, training camps, college courses, fairs, and membership groups, often called covens or groves. My new book, Unmasking the Goddess, is a close look at goddess spirituality. I’m a writer, an evangelical Christian, and I’m looking for the truth. Want to join me in my journey?

I’ve been doing some reading on the revival of goddess worship, and keep coming across the following ten concepts. They’re not arranged in any particular order. Can you add to the list?

Top Ten Teachings of the Goddess Worship Movement

- Spirituality = sensuality. Sex is natural and a powerful way to worship the goddess and gain power. The body itself is holy.

- Development of psychic powers is desired in order to gain personal power.

- An energy or “life force” is manifested in all of creation (animism). All nature is sacred.

- Humans are divine.

- People are basically good and ultimate truth comes from the individual’s own personal experience or conscience.

- The Higher Self is a personal, wise spirit guide to be cultivated.

- Goddess worship is based on personal experience, often depending on an altered state of consciousness.

- Tolerance: all religions, philosophies and ideologies are equally valuable and to be affirmed.

- Pagan/wiccan ethic: If you harm none, do what you want. No absolute rights or wrongs.

- Worship of “the All,” a universal deity polarized as both female and male, goddess and god. The goddess herself has three roles: mother, maiden, and crone.

This is just the beginning. As I research Unmasking the Goddess, interview current and former goddess worshipers, talk to scholars and historians, I hope to uncover the truth about goddess worship. Hang on; we’re in for a ride!