“The message of the Bible makes two great promises.One you’ve already referred to: it offers forgiveness of sins. The other we haven’t discussed–the hope of
eternal life. What do you believe about the afterlife? What happens to a pagan after death?”

It’s funny … Grian and I are just two ordinary women who decided to have a conversation about our spiritual beliefs. No harm in that, right? Yet both of us were nervous, afraid of being attacked by the other, or ridiculed, or misrepresented. It’s not often that pagans and Christians sit down to talk. We pretty much live and move and worship in separate circles.

I can’t speak for Grian, but I also worried about what my Christian friends, family, and colleagues would say. I wondered if they would think it was okay to talk to a pagan or a witch, and to let them share their beliefs on my blog.

There are so many opinions and judgments and opinions and denominations floating around in the
Christian world that it can be very confusing to know the right path.

This is how I solve that problem: I look to Jesus. What did he do? Did he have conversations with pagans? Yes. Did he argue with or judge them? No. He listened, he cared, he offered hope and healing. If they weren’t interested, he let them walk away.

Being a Christ follower is at heart about relationship–with Jesus and with people. In that spirit, here’s the last part of my conversation with Grian.

GRIAN: Now… I’m about to touch on another touchy part, but I want to be honest. Please forgive me if the statements that follow are offensive.

After much study I have come to see all mythology equally. What I mean by that is that I see the Bible as mythology – Jewish/Middle Eastern mythology to be more specific. For me it is no different than Greek or Roman mythology. I think that taking mythology literally is dangerous but that myth can also serve a wonderful purpose to the human psyche. Mythology can teach lessons through parables, yet they remain parables. I have a hard time with the literal interpretation of the Bible (or any myth for that matter) and thus cannot subscribe to Christianity itself. I honestly feel as though I grew out of those beliefs. I do know that sounds a little condescending and I really don’t mean it to. It’s simply the only way I know how to describe it. I respect and honor anyone who follows their faith with a true heart and mean no disrespect at all.

SUSY: I’m not offended; in fact, I’m honored and grateful that you would open up and share your own personal beliefs with me. I think we could probably have a long conversation about the Bible, but maybe that’s for another conversation. But let me just say that the Bible is widely accepted as a historical document, with more textual support than any other ancient document. In addition, it has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, and it transforms lives.

The message of the Bible makes two great promises. One you’ve already referred to: it offers forgiveness of sins. The other we haven’t discussed–the hope of eternal life. What do you believe about the afterlife? What happens to a pagan after death?

GRIAN: On the Bible… I hope this doesn’t come out wrong, but I honestly believe the Bible (and any spiritual text for that matter) is entirely open to interpretation.

On the afterlife… I believe life continues through the process of reincarnation. I believe all life returns to the Goddess at the time of death and then the spirit chooses whether or not they are ready to live another lifetime. The ultimate result of those lifetimes is similar to what Buddhists call Nirvana. Trideans refer to this
god-head level of existence as Completion. To sum up a bit, I believe in life after death – that energy cannot truly be created or destroyed, only transformed.

********************************
So that’s it. Perhaps in the future we’ll get to talk again, but my hope is that Grian’s words will help Christians to understand some of the core beliefs of paganism. To end, here’s a quick summary of some of the differences between Christianity and paganism:

• Pagans believe God is an energy force, existing and part of everything in the universe, and composed of both feminine and masculine aspects; Christians hold that God is a unique being, holy and all powerful, separate from his creation.
• Pagans believe Jesus was a good, holy, enlightened man. Christians believe Jesus to be the only son of God, the only sinless man who ever lived, who died sacrifically and rose again, conquering death.
• Pagans have no concept of sin or salvation. Christians believe we have all broken relationship with our creator God by going our own way, following our selfish natural impulses.
• Pagans believe people have divinity within, and that ultimately God/Goddess can be discovered and cultivated inside each person. Christians look to God as separate, holy, creator, sustainer, redeemer. We can have a relationship with him, but we are not the same as him.
• Paganism promises reincarnation and rebirth while advancing towards personal godhood. Christians believe human life and death happens once, and after that, judgment.
• Pagans feel that no savior or salvation is needed and that all religions lead in the same direction. Christians look to Jesus to save us, through grace, from our sin and despair. His grace, if accepted, results in the gift of eternal life. All religions are not the same; “salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
• Pagans embrace magic and other occultic practices as the empowering practice of harnessing the energy of the universe to effect positive change. Christian fear and avoid any sort of magical practices as condemned in the Bible, looking instead to God alone to lead, guide, act, protect, heal, and bless.

Click here to read the earlier parts of “So a Goddess-centered pagan and a Christian sat down to talk…”

• Part 1
• Part 2
• Part 3
• Part 4

]]> http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-5-conclusion-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/feed/ 6 http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-4-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/ http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-4-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/#comments Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:40:16 +0000 Susy Flory http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-4-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/

“I do believe that Pagans are misunderstood…we are your normal, everyday people.”

As we began to dig deeper into pagan philosophy, some of the major differences between what Grian and I believe began to surface. There’s not much we agree on when it comes to sin, forgiveness, redemption, and evil. Grian believes that human problems and pain are natural, just part of an evolutionary system where the strong survive and the weak do not. And when you act badly or hurt someone, you pay for it in your next life, which is just another round in the cycle of reincarnation. Gather your courage and read on…

SUSY: Do you feel that Goddess worshippers or pagans are misunderstood by Christians? What are some of the common misconceptions?

GRIAN: Yes, I do believe that Pagans are misunderstood. I assume the average consensus among Christians is that most of us are silly, role-playing types of people who dress up like there’s a Renaissance Festival every day. Or that we are focused on some sort of dark satanic sort of worship and obsessed with the gaining of personal power.

Instead we are your normal, everyday people – both men and women with families going about our daily lives and doing the best we can to be good people. I think there is a lot of fear among Christian communities in regards to Pagans, though that may be an oversimplification of the reality.

SUSY: Hmmm…I’m going to speak here for Christians I know, and I don’t think I would say there is a conception that pagans are silly. I think your second view is much more likely. Christians familiar with the Bible are aware of what it has to say about both pagans and witches and want to honor God by following his guidelines to stay away from any sort of witchcraft or sorcery. Both the Old and New Testament ban any sort of idol worship, along with specific mention of the goddess (referring to the ancient Mesopotamian fertility cults). However, I think you’re right that Pagans are misunderstood because many of us haven’t taken the time to understand what you believe, and why, or taken the time to get to know you as
people, rather than a simplistic label. That would definitely have described me in the past, and for that I apologize! God is a perfect balance of truth and
grace; too often we emphasize truth and we lack grace. Both are necessary.

GRIAN: I understand what the Bible says about those things and respectfully have much different opinions. I believe the Bible says those things specifically to dictate what the beliefs of ancient Jewish (and later Christian) people should practice and believe. I consider it a guidebook by which a specific spiritual tradition is laid out not unlike many other sacred texts of antiquity and today. It is important for readers to understand that I do not believe in one true religion and hold many sacred writings in
high esteem even if I don’t subscribe to all of the ideas within them. I also believe that the Bible is written a certain way due to a competition of sorts where religious leaders were battling for followers with other faiths of the time. Of course it would say to stay away from other religions and forms of worship.

SUSY: What do you find in goddess worship that you didn’t find in the church of your childhood? What is the appeal?

GRIAN: Okay, here is where some people might get very offended. Unfortunately, to answer the question appropriately it might be necessary to say some things that will be less than popular. Rest assured, no disrespect is intended.

I do not believe in sin in the traditional sense.

I believe if there is such a thing then it exists only in moments where we hurt another. I believe in Karma and the idea that you can carry your good and bad deeds around with you through lifetimes.

Since I don’t believe in the idea of sin then it would also be obvious that I don’t believe in original sin. That whole idea just really eats at me. I refuse
to believe people are inherently evil. Sure we make mistakes, and lots of them.

But without those mistakes I don’t believe we can evolve as spiritual beings. I actually think if you tell someone that they are inherently bad then they will eventually begin to believe you and may even use that idea as a crutch. How often could someone call a child evil or “devil child” before they are convinced they really are hell spawn? Maybe they will even do something bad and respond with “Well, I’m sinful and bad. What did you expect from me?” I am not implying that is a Christian thing to do… only using it as an example.

After saying that it will be no surprise to hear that I don’t believe in hell or the devil. For starters, I believe the image of the devil is a perverted version of the ancient Horned God of Paganism and a demonization of a Goddess of Light or Venus. But we all know the victors write the history books. Beside the point, in all honesty I see the idea of the devil as a metaphor for the “darker” aspects of God/dess. I believe there can be no light without dark and vice versa. I believe both exist in all life and within God/dess.

Now by darkness I am not talking about “evil.” I am talking about the kind of necessary destruction we see in Nature. Everything that lives must also die so that more life can be created. This “dark” element is necessary or there would never be any sort of transformation that leads to creation. All life would cease to exist. For something to be created other things must be destroyed or transformed to make something new.

SUSY: What do you do with random and senseless acts of evil, then? How do you explain serial killers or school/church shooters?

GRIAN:  I believe these people are sick, unbalanced, make poor choices, etc. I certainly don’t believe Satan led them to do it or anything like that. No, that would be taking
the responsibility away from the person who commits the crime. All actions have consequences and Karma will be dealt to those who decide to hurt others. Since I believe in Karma and reincarnation, I believe these people will have a chance to be held accountable and forced to learn from their mistakes through the course of many, many lifetimes.

Sin is a difficult concept for pagans to deal with. It’s undeniable that people are born with an inner moral compass and all world cultures have a sense of right and wrong, consequences and justice. All of us have a sense that something is just not right as we witness the dark side of human nature and the myriad ways that people hurt each other. But how to fix what is broken inside us?

Pagans offer reincarnation, with a heavy payment schedule; Christians offer redemption, free.

Our culture often glorifies the idea of reincarnation, but Hindus understand its true horror, with the soul entrapped in endless cycles of pain and misery as you pay for your own misdeeds, and those of your ancestors (talk about slavery!). People also often forget to note that you’re as likely to return a roach or a frog as a Princess. A while back I wrote a post about this called  The Dark Side of Reincarnation.

To the Christ follower, on the other hand, evil and pain are not natural. They are an aberration, a perversion of the way God intended for us to live. Sin has turned the world upside down and none of us can escape pain and problems. And this is where I really love the Gospel, because we don’t have to fix it or pay for it. Jesus did, once and for all. We don’t need karma, we don’t have to suffer locked inside the endless cycles of reincarnation, and we don’t
have to fear death.

Click here to read the earlier parts of this interview:

• Part 1
• Part 2
• Part 3

“If nature manifests the Goddess, what do you do with the fact of natural disasters, or the hard, uncaring, even bloody side of nature?”

In this portion of the interview, Grian touches on some key differences between Christian and pagan beliefs. The interesting thing is that she doesn’t see them as that different. Perhaps it’s a generational issue; Grian is a decade or so younger than me, and it’s often been observed that post-modern thought is characterized by syncretism, which means blending and merging various belief systems while minimizing the differences.

But it is probably also a function of where we believe truth comes from: Christians maintain our beliefs as outlined in the Bible, God’s unchanging revelation of truth and the road map for our lives. Pagans, on the other hand, define their beliefs in terms of their individual, unique, and very personal experiences. There is no written standard, no bedrock to cling to.

When we get to the end of the interview, in another couple of posts or so, I’m going to summarize some of the key differences in our beliefs as revealed in this pagan/Christian conversation. I’ll also highlight some of the similarities. After all, we’re both spiritual seekers!

Here’s Part 3…

SUSY: You said that you don’t consider yourself a Wiccan. Do you have a particular spiritual belief system that you identify with? Can you describe it?

GRIAN: I consider myself a Goddess-centered Pagan and I practice Tridea. Tridea is a tradition of Goddess Religion that focuses on Nature and its cycles – finding
spiritual meaning through seeing the Goddess in all things. Nature is considered the sacred text or blueprint by which the Goddess is understood and realized.

SUSY: I see a similarity between us here, in that Christians believe God reveals himself through nature (and also through people’s consciences). However, we differ in that I believe God primarily reveals himself through the Bible, and through the life of Jesus. If nature manifests the Goddess, what do you do with the fact of natural disasters, or the hard, uncaring, even bloody side of nature? What do those things say about the Goddess?

GRIAN: As I mentioned earlier I believe in a “darker” aspect of the Goddess. I usually put that word in quotes because it can be misleading. This
“darker” aspect deals primarily with the absolutely necessary reality of physical death (destruction) that leads to transformation (both physically and spiritually). A metaphor I often use is the burning of wood in a fire. The wood is destroyed yet also transformed into heat and ash. It has not ceased to exist, only taken on new form. Along those same lines; when a forest fire happens it is awful and scary, but eventually the forest is more fertile and full of life than it was before.

Another example can be seen in human creation. When a person is created the two cells that came from their parents have to be destroyed in order to create something new. None of us are still those two cells. We are the beings those two cells were transformed into.

The main point I am trying to get at is that nothing can be created without something first being destroyed. This is not a bad thing at all. It is how our planet works and how life itself works. While people mourn the victims of natural disasters and perhaps even fear the destructive qualities of nature;
I believe everything must happen for a reason. I believe in natural order that may not always be pretty or pleasant, but it is necessary and part of Divinity’s plan.

These ideas and practices are not new, nor are they specific to one religion. Instead they are considered universal and timeless. Terms that may help with these descriptions are Pantheism and Panentheism. Wikipedia has good definitions for both.

SUSY: What are some of your spiritual practices? Christians pray, tithe, read and study the Bible, take communion, and worship God together as a church. Do you have your own counterparts to these practices?

GRIAN: Absolutely. We pray as well; quite often and as a group. While Trideans don’t focus on magic as a practice, it is a firm belief that spells (as many Wiccans and Pagans practice) are a form of prayer. The only difference is that there are some props involved. I often find this helpful in explaining the use of magic or spell
work to people of other faiths. Again, I do not consider magic (as it is identified in Wicca) as a part of my religion. Instead I see magic as prayer with props and find only a small amount of distinction between it and the prayer practices of other faiths.

SUSY: One important distinction is that Christians pray to God with a request that he take action, and that His will be done, while it seems that pagans pray and cast spells
in an effort to effect change themselves. To us prayer is a conversation, a child with his or her Dad, with no props needed. So, that leads me to ask–why the props?

GRIAN: I think the way Pagans pray is not that different at all. I can only speak for myself though. Personally, I also have conversations with Goddess and ask for her help. Many times I have completely surrendered to her will. But I also believe I have some power over situations as well. I think this is the main distinction. I don’t feel subordinate to Goddess. Instead I am a part of her – I am Goddess as I believe everyone and everything else is. I do not believe in a separation between the Goddess and everything else, but instead a oneness of all things. So, I think what you’re referring to when Pagans effect change themselves is because we believe we are also divine.

On the issue of props … Catholics use rosaries, some Christians may choose to focus on a crucifix during prayer, Buddhists use a collection of prayer items like oil lamps, incense, etc. I think these practices are more or less the same. Some people feel the need for elaborate spell setups that help them focus the intent of their prayers. Others like myself prefer a few simple candles, incense, and an altar figure or two. I enjoy the use of idols and even create them with my own hands. I don’t see this as anything more than a way to focus meditative energy for prayer. Actually, when I create Goddess images I consider it a form of worship. I am an artist after all, and cannot fathom why this form of “idolatry” would be any different than renaissance painters portraying Christ and the Virgin in oils or egg tempera.

More from this interview in my next post. Here’s a quick preview of questions in part 4:

• What are some of the common misconceptions Christians have about pagans?
• What do you find in goddess worship that you didn’t find in the church of your childhood?

]]> http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-3-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/feed/ 2 http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-2-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/ http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-2-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/#comments Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:16:18 +0000 Susy Flory http://www.susyflory.com/2008/part-2-so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/ I never tire of hearing stories about how people come to faith in Christ. Every story is unique and I find, over and over, that Jesus reaches out to us through friends and family. Many people I’ve talked to can point to a Christian grandmother or grandfather who was a powerful spiritual influence, often through years of persistent prayer and quiet lives of humble faith.

But Grian’s story, continued in part 2 below, is different. While she had a Christian grandfather who modeled Christianity, she chose another path. Why? How could she taste the goodness and peace of a friendship with Jesus, and then reject Him? She explains…in her own words.

SUSY:  You mention a strong belief in God. What was your idea of God? Can you describe him, as you understood him at this stage of your life? Also, where did you learn about hell? Where did the fear of the Devil and damnation come from?

GRIAN:  I thought God probably looked like my grandfather; a tall man with kind eyes and an unconditional heart. But I also learned about the  more vengeful side of God that scared me as a child. As I spoke of before, I went to church and sometimes even attended Sunday school. I went to revival events like Fishnet in Virginia and learned about the concept of hell and the devil through language that I can only describe as being very "fire and brimstone." Later, as a teenager, I taught Vacation Bible School. So, I had a pretty decent education in Christianity.

As a teenager I began having recurring dreams about Jesus. They were good dreams and I would describe them as almost casual. Jesus and I would be walking down the streets of my small hometown and he would be dressed in jeans, a white t-shirt, and a pair of sandals. I still remember it very clearly. He would put his arm around my shoulders and say "Now, don’t tell anyone I’m Jesus. I’m here for you right now and I want to give you my full attention." Then we would just talk about whatever I needed to talk about. Jesus would listen like a great friend and then walk me home.

SUSY:  Wow, Grian. You can guess that this part of your story really grabs my attention. As a teen, what did you know about Jesus? Did you perceive these dreams as real contact with Jesus? Or something else?

GRIAN:  I believe I knew who Jesus was when I was having these dreams. Did I think Jesus was really talking to me? I don’t know, Maybe at the time I wanted to believe something like that. As I look back on it now I rationalize it as me needing some support in my life and my subconscious mind was meeting that need through a spiritual figure.

I was 17 years old when the Goddess came into my life. I had always been intrigued by things of a spiritual or otherworldly nature and I believed there was so much more to know that my spiritual upbringing had not given me. So when a friend introduced me to the concept of Wicca, I began soaking up all the knowledge I could get my hands on. I didn’t consider myself Wiccan – and still don’t – but I wanted to learn all that I could about the ideas surrounding it.

At first, it was almost all about the idea of magic and the unknown. It was exciting and I suddenly felt like I was beginning to connect with something bigger – with the pieces I had always sensed were missing. Basically, I learned that I too could be a mystic; that I could connect with God on a personal level without the need for an intermediary such as a pastor or priest. I realize now that my grandfather and my mother were pivotal in helping me realize this.

SUSY:  Did you believe that the God you were connecting with through Wicca, was the same God that your grandfather prayed to? Were your grandparents and mother aware of your new spiritual direction? Did they encourage or discourage you?

GRIAN:  My mother knew and never had a problem with it. My grandfather would not have understood and I saw no reason to break his heart or disappoint him so that I could be self-righteous. I have since spoken to my grandmother and she understands as best she can.

When I was 19 I moved to Germany to live with my new husband who was in the military. Yes, I was married very young, but I believe this also helped me come to my spirituality more quickly than most. Instead of dating and being absorbed in the search for love throughout early adulthood, I was able to find comfort in my relationship so that my own interests could be explored.

SUSY:  I was married at 20, and I totally agree with you. I feel like I missed out on a lot of heartache, the kind that I saw my friends go through with serial relationships. How did your husband view your spirituality?

GRIAN:  I think my husband thought it was some sort of girl-power trip at first, but he was supportive anyway. He later grew to respect my ideas and the dedication I put into becoming educated about my faith. He has always supported my spiritual pursuits – or any pursuit of mine for that matter. We have never had a problem over my spiritual choices, though I will admit I wish he was more interested in religion in general.

My interest in Wicca had continued through this time, though I had become tired of the idea of spells and such. I felt it was just a little too silly for me. I can hear all the Wiccans being upset with me about that one, so I promise to make my position on that more clear at another time.

Anyway, I was searching for something more. I knew of the Goddess and had learned about her various aspects and faces through mythology, but I had yet to connect with her on that deeper spiritual level. Then one day, while walking in the woods behind our apartment building, I felt her there with me. As I bent down to admire the wild Lily of the Valley, I suddenly felt that I was not alone and never had been – that I was connected to all things and all things were one. Within nature I began to see the Goddess everywhere and in seeing her I began to truly see myself.

To be continued….

Click here to read Part 1 of this conversation between Susy and Grian.

Grian is a goddess-centered pagan woman who lives across the country from me. Via the wonder of the internet, our paths have crossed. We have a lot in common; we’re both wives and mothers. Grian is a talented fine artist who works under the name Lee Hutchings; I’m a graphic artist in my day job. We’re both very spiritual, and we write and blog about our spiritual beliefs. There the similarities end; Grian is a goddess-centered pagan; I’m a Christ-centered evangelical Christian.

But we’re both curious about each other’s spirituality, and I think we both have lots of misconceptions about each other’s beliefs. I wanted to learn more about Grian and her spiritual journey, so she graciously agreed to answer some of my questions. We had lots to talk about, so this is the first part of a multi-post blog conversation.

SUSY: Is Grian your real name? It sounds very Celtic.

GRIAN: Nope. It’s a variant of a name I chose many years ago. I use it as an alias online but I am certainly not trying to hide my identity. My given name is Lisa. Pretty much everyone other than my mother calls me Lee. Oh, and yes it is Celtic. It is the Irish word for the sun.

SUSY: Can you describe yourself a bit? Perhaps tell us a little bit about your family, job, education, personality? Where you live? Or anything else that might help us get to know you…

GRIAN: I am 30 years old and I live in Upstate, NY with my family. I have one child; a daughter who is eight years old. I am also Mom to two dogs and three cats. I have been married for 11 years to my high school sweetheart. I am an artist and during the day I work for an art supply company. A few years ago my husband and I bought a house with my mother and we all share almost two acres of property together. In between raising a family and making art I have been pursuing a degree in fine arts. Personality wise… many people have described me as a free sprit and one person even dubbed me "the girl who is always trying to figure out the meaning of life." I suppose I have always been a seeker and I am quick to become absorbed in anything I choose to study.

SUSY: I guess I’d like to begin just knowing more about you and your "faith journey," as we call it in the church. Can you share your spiritual story? What is your background? Where and when did you start on your current spiritual path? What drew you to your current beliefs and practices? And where do you hope to go with it in the future?

GRIAN: Firstly, this is a great question and a great place to start – at what I guess would be considered the beginning.

I was raised by a single mother and for the first years of my life we lived with my grandfather. My spiritual story begins with him.

My grandfather was a devout Christian and every night as I lay in bed I heard him talking to God in the next room. He would literally kneel at his bedside and pray out loud in a dialogue with God. From this practice of my grandfather’s I learned about unabashed faith. He was never ashamed that the other people in our house could hear him praying, he only knew that it was important to connect with God in prayer. I consider this one of the most important spiritual lessons of my life.

My mother was not a churchgoer. Though my grandmother had made sure I was baptized Methodist, my mother had always told me that we didn’t need to go to church to believe in God. I think she always felt there was a lot of hypocrisy going on within the walls of churches. She grew to believe this through personal experiences, but she has never really told me the details of those experiences. My mother would later realize that her beliefs were best described as Agnostic. I believe this is an accurate label since she always taught me that there was a God (something bigger than me that created the universe) but we were not a specific denomination in any way.

SUSY: Did your mom’s negative experiences with the church have an impact on you? And, did the Bible have an impact on your childhood at all?

GRIAN: I don’t think my mother’s experiences had a real impact on me. She didn’t care if I went to church and I would regularly attend with my grandfather. I read the Bible at an early age. I was always aware of the stories within it, the Ten Commandments, etc.

When I was a child I always had a strong belief in God. I prayed very often in my head throughout the day and before sleep as a regular practice. Though my faith was strong, I was also always afraid that I was doing something wrong that would get me sent to Hell. I was often terrified of the Devil and the whole idea of damnation.

More from Grian in my next post….

]]> http://www.susyflory.com/2008/so-a-goddess-centered-pagan-and-a-christian-sat-down-to-talk/feed/ 1 http://www.susyflory.com/2007/god-thanks-for-helping-me-but-i-dont-need-you-anymore/ http://www.susyflory.com/2007/god-thanks-for-helping-me-but-i-dont-need-you-anymore/#comments Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:45:08 +0000 Susy Flory http://www.susyflory.com/2007/god-thanks-for-helping-me-but-i-dont-need-you-anymore/ As you can imagine, over the past few months I’ve had some fascinating (and heartbreaking) conversations with women as I’ve been researching the world of goddess worship for a new book. Several key questions continue to intrigue and haunt me as I talk to women and men who have either turned away from this type of paganism, or who are still in the thick of it. Here are some of my key questions:

• What led you into goddess worship?
• What do you find or experience there that you don’t find in the church?
• What is your understanding of Christianity?
• What do you think about Jesus? (If the person was previously a Christian or a churchgoer, I always ask questions about their relationship with Jesus.) Was he a close friend … or more of an abstract concept? Something just read about in books or heard about from the pulpit?
• Did you make a deliberate choice to follow the goddess, or did you just sort of drift into it?

As a child, I was always taught "once saved, always saved," but I wonder if the term Christian is that
simple and easy to define, because I’ve run across a number of pagan women who, if you had known them in their church days, would have certainly been defined by the evangelical definition as saved, as believers,  as Christians.

It seems that many people in the church, who we would think of as Christians, and who might even define themselves as Christians, might just be drifting along in the stream of the religious community but never quite grabbing on to the lifeline that Jesus offers. Here’s an example:

I went to coffee with a lovely young woman, not quite 20. She’s articulate, creative, opinionated, sensitive, and searching. She grew up in the church, loved God, even helped teach Sunday school. She suffered through some major family problems, and ended up walking away from the church and embracing Wicca and goddess worship. She knows the Gospel, the Bible, the church, and Christianity. Yet, she doesn’t want it. Her thoughts on God:

"He was something up in the sky, far above me. I didn’t really know who he was." And
Jesus: "He was a wise man who lived a long time ago." She considered the Bible interesting but mostly irrelevant to her life.

And my last question? Whether she’s made a deliberate choice or just drifted into goddess worship? Here’s what she said:

"On the day of my high school graduation, I prayed and said ‘God, thanks for helping me through everything. You’ve been there for me. But I don’t need you anymore. I’m going to follow the Goddess.’

And then, you guessed it. She prayed a commitment prayer directly to the Goddess:

"I’m going to follow you now."

For this one woman, it was a deliberate choice. But the cool thing? I got to share my faith with her. She asked me a few questions and listened, because I had listened to her.

God, reach out to her today and make your presence known. Soften her heart. Give her a little taste of your glory, your grace, and your love.

Jerry Rassamni was raised Muslim in Lebanon and found himself living out his beliefs with a gun during the bloody civil war. In his book From Jihad to Jesus, this ex-Muslim militia fighter shares his story as well as the compelling evidence that led him to abandon Islam and choose to follow Jesus.

In this last of my three-part interview with Jerry, he answered a few questions about Islam and women. His answers shocked me.

Q. Can you talk about women’s rights and shari’a (religious law)? Are women and men treated differently? Why?

A. Women have the value of a shoe, according to the Shari’a law.  For instance, in Saudi Arabia, the seat of Islam, women cannot show up in courts, drive cars, or wear red on Valentine’s Day. They are banned from sciences, sports, and arts.  By law, they must abide by the seventh-century dress code of the prophet’s wives.  Islam’s prophet is also reputed to have said that "hell is full of women."  I truly believe that there’s a deep seeded enmity between the adversary and women since God promised that the Messiah will come through the seed of the woman (virgin born). 

Q. What does Christianity offer that Islam does not?

A. Salvation and the intimacy of a personal relationship with the creator are the foremost things offered by Christianity while notably absent in Islam.  Muslims follow religious pillars all their lives hoping that their good deeds will outweigh their bad deeds on the Day of Judgment, but they never have the assurance of eternal life.  Also, unlike Islam, in Christianity, God is not a distant impersonal God, but He is a personal heavenly father who longs for a personal relationship with each of us through His Son Jesus Christ.

Q. What can Christian women do to effectively reach out to Muslim women here in the U.S.?

A. They must first and foremost pray for them, and then build relationships with them.  Christians cannot win anyone into the kingdom by shoving the Gospel down their throats, but they have to live the Gospel.  The people who had the biggest impact in reaching me with the Gospel didn’t know the first thing about Islam, but they knew a language that transcends cultures: unconditional love.  They were Christ with skin on to me.  They made the light of God shine through them.

Find out more about Jerry, read his blog, or ask him a question at www.fromjihadtojesus.com.

Note: if you’re a subscriber, and would like to comment on this post or read the comments, click here to go to the Unmasking the Goddess blog.

Jerry Rassamni was raised Muslim in Lebanon and found himself living out his beliefs with a gun during the bloody civil war. In his book From Jihad
to Jesus, this ex-Muslim militia fighter shares his story as well as the compelling
evidence that led him to abandon Islam and embrace Christ.

In part two of our interview, Jerry answered questions about the
intriguing links between gnosticism
(popularized by The Da Vinci Code), and Islam. We also talked about some
of the key differences between Christianity and Islam.

Q. Do Muslims believe in Jesus?

A. Although Muslims claim that they believe in Jesus, but
they reinvented Jesus into a mere prophet who purportedly (a) never claimed to
be the Son of God, and who (b) did not die on the cross. It is worth noting however that the Qur’an
admits that Jesus was born of a virgin (Surah 19.20-21), that he was
sinless (Surah 19:19), and that the grave could not contain Him
(Surah 19:33).

Q. Is Allah the God of the
Bible?

A. Although Islam used the name Allah, which is the same
word used in the Arabic translations of the Bible,  however, Allah in Islam clearly does not denote the
eternal God of the Bible. The worship of
Allah of the crescent is nothing short of polytheism with a face-lift. What good
is it that Islam called its followers to monotheism if that monotheistic deity
came with a long list of pagan credentials? We see today jihadists embarking on
bloodshed, while believing that Allah will reward their evil deeds with seventy
virgins each in paradise. Even the most basic understanding of the character of
the God of the Bible reveals that He is love; but if Allah is God, then why
would he be the author of such hatred? How could a loving God who is the essence
of holiness, goodness, and purity sanction such malevolence?

Q. Is there a relationship between Islam and
gnosticism?

A. The problem of the Colossians was syncretism (the
biblical book of Colossians was written to the church of Colosse by the apostle
Paul). Like Muslims, Colossians combined
other philosophies and religions including paganism, strains of Judaism, Greek
thought with elements of Christian truths. The resulting heresy which denies Christ as God and savior and emphasizes
hidden knowledge later became know as Gnosticism. Although mainstream Islam denies any links to
Gnosticism, however, Islam embodies the very essence of Gnosticism.

Q. Does the Qur’an also suggest that Jesus did not die on the
cross, as reported in the Bible? What
are the implications?

A. The Qur’an suggests in Surah 4:157 that Jesus was not
crucified but that God was involved in trickery by putting Jesus’ likeness on
another person who was crucified in the place of Jesus. This deceit purportedly committed by Allah
casts the creator into a shadowy character whose holiness is not above
reproach. Furthermore, Muslims
promulgate that Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God, however, the mere
assertion that there was a crucifixion intended for Jesus is in itself proof
positive that Jesus did claim to be the Son of God. Historical and Biblical records tell us that
Jesus was  sentenced to crucifixion because of His claim to be the Son of
God.

More from my interview with Jerry Rassamni,
including Islam and women’s rights, in my next post….

If you’re a subscriber, and would like to comment on this post or read the
comments, click here to go to the Unmasking the Goddess
blog.   

Later, when he encountered the Bible, he entered a "personal Jihad" where he tangled with the question of whether the Qur’an or the Bible is the true word of God. In From Jihad to Jesus, Jerry shares his own story, as well as the compelling evidence that led him to abandon Islam and embrace Christ.

In our interview, Jerry answered questions about the intriguing links between paganism, including goddess worship, gnosticism (popularized by The Da Vinci Code), and Islam. We also talked about some of the key  differences between Christianity and Islam.

Q. Is it true that Islam is essentially a peaceful religion?

A. Islam traditionally divides the world into two camps, (1) Dar Al Islam, meaning "House of Peace," denotes countries that are under Muslim rule, and (2) Dar Al Harb, meaning "House of War," denotes countries that are not yet under Muslim control. The war cry of the Wahabis, who are the dominant Islamic sect in Saudi Arabia, was: “kill the infidels.” The national flag of Saudi Arabia, the religious center of Islam has the Islamic creed inscribed upon it: “La Illaha Illa Allah, Muhammad Rasulu Allah” (meaning: There is no god by Allah, Muhammad is his messenger).  Beneath those words, is the key to making that happen—a sword.

Q. Is Islam based on early pagan beliefs? What is the relationship of Islam to paganism?

A. It is no secret that the crescent moon which adorns the flags of Muslim countries and dominates the top of mosques and minarets everywhere has become the symbol of Islam. Furthermore, the timing of the hilal (the crescent moon) marks the starting the Ramadan, the Muslim holy month of fasting.  Also, Muslims partake in animism under the guise of monotheism by kissing a stone (black stone) that was associated with the moon god prior to Islam. Moreover, Muslims continue to preserve pagan customs and practices, such as circumambulating the pagan temple, that were associated with the moon god.

Q. Does Islam have a historical tradition of goddess worship?

A. Mecca’s pagans believed that Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun goddess who bore him three goddesses known as the daughters of Allah, who were called Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat. Allah and these goddesses were viewed as “high gods” that are superior to all the other pagan deities. In order to placate the Meccans into accepting Islam, Islam’s prophet allowed for intercession to these pagan idols with some “Qur’anic” revelations. Essentially, the Qur’an briefly compromised its monotheistic message in order to attract more converts. However, after Muslim disciples rebuked the prophet for falling into polytheism, he later explained that Satan had deceived him, and proceeded to abrogate (delete) these Satanic Verses, which Salman Rushdie wrote about.   

Q. Goddess spirituality encourages worship of the sun and the moon. Is there a similar tradition in Islam?

A. Phillip Hitti, author of History of the Arabs, explains that the Bedouin astral belief centered on the moon, since Bedouins grazed their flocks in its light. Pagan Arabs imagined that their lives were regulated by the moon, which condenses the water vapors, distils dew, and enables plant growth. They believed on the other hand, that the harsh sun of the desert would like to destroy the Bedouins as well as animal and plant life. By adopting the iconic crescent of the moon god, Islam forever cemented the worship of Allah with the idolatrous moon god. 

More from my interview with Jerry Rassamni, including Islam and women’s rights, in my next post….

If you’re a subscriber, and would like to comment on this post or read the comments, click here to go to the Unmasking the Goddess blog.

"From what I can see, experimenting with goddess worship in any of its forms is becoming as popular among college age girls as experimenting with sexuality." (Debbie Viguie)

A very talented writer friend, Debbie Viguié, recently shared some thoughts with me on the growing interest in goddess worship, particularly among younger women. And she oughta know–she has authored several novels centered around Wicca/witchcraft, including the popular Wicked series and one of the Charmed books (Charmed: Pied Piper). Titles include Witch, Curse, Legacy, and Spellbound. (A prolific author, you can check out her other work at her website.) Before you delve in to Debbie’s thoughts, here’s an interesting fact: she’s a Christian. Loves Jesus. Has a powerful statement of faith on her website. She’s well aware that her books are controversial, but the fact is that she loves the Lord, and she has a unique perspective on paganism. Here’s what Debbie had to say:

"From what I can see, experimenting with goddess worship in any of its forms is becoming as popular among college age girls as experimenting with sexuality. It’s really pretty frightening.  Once they get a little older, the majority seem to not care so much.  It’s no longer rebellious or edgy or trendy at that point, its just another "religion" with obligations, rituals, etc. that they don’t want to invest the time in it.

"Now to be fair, the [Wicked] series does have a lot of fans who are Christians, agnostics, and other things.  And some true practitioners champion it, even though they are quick to point out that it is a  work of fiction and huge liberties are taken.  The first fansite for the series was created by a Wicca who took the time to explain and point out the differences between how some things were done in our books and how they might be done in reality.

"That said, one of the biggest differences between the series and all the wannabes is there is actual supernatural stuff happening in the books.  Some of it is scary enough that I’ve even heard some girls say that because of reading the books, they would never dabble.  The girls with the spice racks are almost always wasting their time and effort with less substantial proof that anything is coming of it than the average Christian.

"Like anything, though, there are exceptions.  In my life I have met people who have accidentally or purposefully been able to tap into the actual dark stuff.  I have been physically attacked and cursed by some of these people.  I have responded and done things like hunted down the meeting place of one group on a California university campus and blessed and consecrated that place to God.  It caused them loads of discomfort when they tried to return to it and eventually they had to find a new meeting place.  Would have liked to have done more, but not bad for an hour’s work.  :}

"When I went away to college, one of the girls in my building and I made an uneasy discovery about each other the very first night. She found out I was a Christian. I found out that she was being groomed to be one of the biggest occult leaders ever seen. And, yes, demons would do things at her bidding and cause things to fly about rooms, etc.  The first few weeks weren’t pretty.  The good news is, five months later she became a Christian.

"Goddess worship on its face is no more alarming than other religions such as Islam, which is rapidly spreading in this country. The true danger lies, in my opinion, in the fact that it opens people up to certain types of demonic attacks that are pretty horrific and can lead to some real nastiness."

Debbie has also written two YA novels, Midnight Pearls and Scarlet Moon, weaving traditional fairy tales into her original stories. You can check them out on her website.

Note: if you’re a subscriber, and would like to comment on this post or read the comments, click here to go to the Unmasking the Goddess blog.

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